Curse

Missing HB · Mar 07, 2011, 10:06 AM // 10:06

I totally agree with OP . However , some notes :

- If dishonor is removed , they would automatically need to rework RA title ( else people would for sure instantly leave again if no monk ; i would do it probably to be honest...)
- dishonor has to be removed in event games , especially rollerbeetle racing. So , i resigned coz i can't win , i get dishonor , wtf??
- increasing the number of faction earned in FA and JQ would also need to happen with a skill nerf , especially RoJ and Bomber. Let's assume you win 12k faction for a win and 5k for a lose ( just examples). Don't you think there will be an influx of players playing those RoJ and bombers then ???

But , simply reworking the gladiator title would fix for sure ALL problems happening in RA. Who would care of having no monk , fighting crap metas , syncers , etc.. then?

c0c0c0 · Mar 07, 2011, 02:45 PM // 14:45

QFT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

The other problem that isn't even being touched on here is the attitude problems of a HUGE number of the player base. People with attitudes make for a much worse experience than the flawed system imho. Maybe what needs to change is that bans start being handed out to crass, toilet-mouthed ignoramuses in the RA lobby. One of the reasons I don't play much GW anymore is because the player base in LOTRO is vastly a nicer crowd than GW. That type of thing fixes an RA problems really quickly.

Testify, brother. This is why I'm so loving 7 Heros. Sometimes, PvP would be a lot more fun if not for the other P's.

I wish there was some way we could reward civility.

Don Zardeone · Mar 07, 2011, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Didn't read everything
I say this:

- autokick players 30 sec inactivity (pre-map countdown doesn't count)
- autoreplace kicked/leaving players with people in waiting queue

Create a second Fort Aspenwood for Kurzicks who want to attack and Luxons who want to defend

tealspikes · Mar 07, 2011, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

RA Monk Problem

Add either an environmental effect which heals players for certain actions (Killing someone) OR an NPC similar to the Priest with target heals. There will always be an advantage to having a Monk in your team, but the difference between 2 Monks - 3damage dealers vs 1Monk (NPC) 4 damage dealers is alot less severe than 1 Monk - 3 damage dealers vs 4 damage dealers.

That's just another bandaid fix that ignores the root of the problem - monks being more useful than other professions by a large margin. And to fix the monk problem, you also have to address the overpowered hexes and the midline damage and the hammer warriors...list goes on. Also your system values fast/high damage over anything else, giving even less reason to bring self heals or utility.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Leeching problem

Punishing leechers will always be a double bladed sword because there will always be "innocent" leechers who got forced to afk because of real life circumstances. I don't have an ideal solution worked out, but I do believe the current system needs to get rework.

If unexpected interruptions (RL, computer issues) are frequent, then you probably shouldn't be playing to begin with since you are constantly a detriment to any team that must rely on you.

HawkofStorms · Mar 07, 2011, 09:55 PM // 21:55

RA is FAR better now after dishonor was added then before it. A week before dishonor was added, I played about 10 matches in RA in a row, and 9 of them had somebody rage quit before the match even started because he didn't have a monk. It simply stopped being fun beating people in 4v2s or being beaten 2v4. Hell, you could easily get glad points without a monk or a healer if you just had 4 guys who didn't rage quit, because chances are, you'd be playing a 4v3 or better anyways.

It hasn't eliminated rage quiting (cause, well, come on, stuff in RL happens and sometime you just have to go) or AB/FA leaching, but it is far better then not having it at all.
I've only once ever gotten dishonor, and that was because I had 56k at the time I disconnected. If dishonor is ever a problem for you, none the less the "bane of low end PvP" like you describe, then the dishonor system is doing exactly what it is supposed to be doing, punishing and discouraging griefers who are inconsiderate of the teammates he leaves behind at a disadvantage.

Nalia · Mar 07, 2011, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Mad

...
First of all, I know by experience you definitely cannot predict if you're gonna win a game or not at the start (ok, unless you notice there are 4 leechers and 2 bots in your team

). And even during the game, it's often hard to tell. I've seem many times my team getting beaten down during half of the game, and finally win it, for various reasons: leavers on the other side, bugs (like turtles/juggernauts being stuck in JQ), or simply because it took some time before they understand the objective and how to play together.

Without the dishonnour system, how would it be? * Wait 20 minutes to enter JQ * "Oh, there is no MoP in our team!" *leave* *Wait another 20 minutes*

yes, that would be quite frustrating and there are times you can win a match you were initially losing, maybe have /resign be individual based (i cna personally resign out and not get dishonour) and add a timer to it, so in larger formats if 1 person resigns but others do not have a chance to type it yet or a discussion is had and the choice to stop the resignation process is determine then you could do that. simply add a popup box with a cancel button similar to the one you get when entering a mission in pve.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Mad

Again, my biggest concern if you get rid of the dishonnour system, is that the number of ragequitters will increase dramatically. That would ruin these missions. However, that could be an option but only on one condition: fill the holes. If someone leaves, then someone who's waiting in the outpost should immediately replace him, even if the game has already started.
If this is implanted, then, yeah, I'd be willing to let the players leave if they want, and that would content both the "I wanna win" players, and the "never resign" players such as me.

yes rage quitters would increase, im not sure though if drop-in/out is the proper solution. it would be nice, i relate it to say rock band 3, i have recently been playing you can drop-in/out as you see fit even in the middle of a song. the problem is, it doesnt affect other opposing players, your 'team' is the only affected group, as there really is no opposition. so for pvp i dont think this sort of drop-in/out would work as it could impact the current game drastically in an unfair manner.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Mad

Now, concerning the fact that you also get dishonnour points is no one else reports a leecher, I always report them. ...

i also have never had that happen, im not sure what OP is talking about either concerning that

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Mad

I do agree with you concerning the bots. They don't get reported most of the time, but I really think it's the not the dishonnourable system tat should deal with them, but Anet themselves, and the sanction for using such 3 party tools shouldn't be to have to wait a few minutes before you can join a PvP team, but a ban, plain and simple.

part of the problem may be the difficulty in identifying a bot for some people. many people are still under the impression that botting in pvp simply is not viable so i could see where the bot would continue on for long periods simply because no one realizes its a bot.

the solution is complex though, yes anet needs to identify botters and ban them, but at the same time there needs to be a stiffer penalty for constant dishonours against a specific account or character. otherwise the bots that are too sophisticated for anet to detect from a programmatic standpoint (and thus bypass anet's detection) but can be identified from a real person standpoint (they are sloppy enough to be identified by someone actually watching them or interacting with them) would be handled. this would also fix people that are not bots but simply assholes, as they would incur stiffer penalties for repetitive assholeness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Mad

Nowadays, any player can max it pretty easily, provided he's a dedicated JQ/FA/AB player.

i have yet to see this statement to be true, many people say it but i have done ab since the early days, the faction has changed numerous times and now its at the peak of being able to get points towards the title for ab/fa/jq along with any other method of gathering that faction.

still though, my account has been luxon since the release of factions, i would consider myself a skilled ab'er, not the best, not the worst, a bit above average. i consistently win and play nearly daily for numerous hours each day in ab. the state of ab has changed a few times drastically over the years, where kurzick won more often and luxon won more often. ok thats fine. yet ive been only luxon from day 1, never kurzick, to get specific, i have turned in a total of 0 kurzick faction since the release of factions itself. yet, i am still only r7 luxon.

now i understand that maybe youre going to argue 'trollololol win moar nub' or 'play more and earn more' or some other response related to those, but the fact is that you simply cannot gain r12 in the title in a reasonable amount of time from pvp alone. i did the math to go from r0 to r12, it would take roughly 5 days of non-stop mqsc to max luxon title iirc. realistically a person cannot play like that, so realistically it would take a couple weeks of playing 8 hour days of NOTHING except mqsc. thats pretty ridiculous imho, but not too off the wall. now you take that same amount of faction required for r0 to r12, and apply it to say AB. and lets assume you ARE playing literally 24 hour days non-stop. due to wait times, lulls in the community (keep in mind PvP means player versus player and if there is no player to versus then you also cant play), losses, etc. it will take considerably longer to gain that same amount of faction as compared to mqsc.

i dont think the title should be solely pvp related, because it has implementations in pve (see imbagon, sos rit, etc.) but at least try to get a closer match to pve only methods of acquiring the title as compared to pvp only methods of acquiring it either by increasing the pvp gains for faction or decreasing the pve gains or a combination of the two.

Zahr Dalsk · Mar 07, 2011, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelfer

Pardon? The idea is to play the game and enjoy, not to go out hell bent for a 17 consecutive wins streak!

Fallacious logic. Playing a game you know you're going to win is just as unfun as playing a game you know you're going to lose.

Mireles · Mar 08, 2011, 12:54 AM // 00:54

I think one of these two things should happen with resign:

Not be allowed to be used in PvP.... if you start a match you should finish it....

If usable in PvP make it cause dishonor.. and not reward a win based on how long the match went on... /resign is used most in syncing GvG/Codex/HA ... there is no reason you should be quitting a match when you have prepared to enter...

Syncing will have to be addressed if there is any going to be any legitimacy in the pvp titles....

So will consecutive win requirements for rewards if you want people just starting pvp to feel like it is worth their time and effort... Otherwise pvp will always only belong to the people who dedicated themselves greatly to pvp...

Elle Bishop · Mar 08, 2011, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Maybe they should increase the lux/kurz faction gained from ab to make it more appealing to those who are still looking to max out that title track...

I really love ab but it takes way too long to go in.

*lemming* · Mar 08, 2011, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

/resign is used most in syncing GvG/Codex/HA ... there is no reason you should be quitting a match when you have prepared to enter...

You are painfully misinformed.

Elnino · Mar 08, 2011, 04:22 AM // 04:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Alliance Battles
The issue with Alliance Battles, aswell as JQ/FA but I'll come to that later is that it often happens a game is already won or lost in the first few minutes of the fight. What happens is one side manages to get a 100 point lead, and from there on, it's downhill 99% of the cases. However, as with JQ/FA, when Anet implemented dishonorable, they indirectly forced everyone to keep on playing, even if the match was already lost.

This is horribly untrue. With a little thing called good play, you can turn the tide of the match.

Quote:

Increase Faction compared to PvE-farms

Anet always claimed they're against grind, yet to achieve ranks in these titles one needs to do a redicilous amount of MQSC's or DTSC's. For years on end, people actually botted both titles, and noone simply cared, because deep down, everyone (including Anet) realized the these titles simply take too long to get.

I'm suggesting to create a large influx towards PvP (Which is good for reasons much more than to reduce grind. Think more people playing RA, GvG and HA) by increasing the rewards of Alliance Battles and JQ/FA so that they're superiour to Speed-Clearing.

Luxon/Kurzick titles should never have been so hard to get in the first place, so I see no reason to atleast double the current rewards for PvP matches. Right now, it's double JQ/FA weekend, and I find that I'm still barely scraping the bottom-end faction I would have been getting if I was Speed-clearing. Luxon/Kurzick titles initially got introduced as PvP titles and I think it's time to take a step in the right direction again. Double, or even triple JQ/FA and AB faction rewards. There's no such thing as making a grind title 'cheap'.

I 100% agree with this

Quote:

Improve player mentality/capability

Upon entering JQ/FA for the first time, there needs to be a forced cinematic (Forced, yes. After all, JQ/FA is the step between PvE and PvP which makes for a drastic difference) which quickly and clearly explains the goals of these formats. Doing this would take no more than a day's work as all the material is already there.

No, it would take more than a day's work to create the cinematic. It's not just "hit the record button while X NPC does /Y emote"

Quote:

Allow people to observe matches. If observer mode isn't possible (for resources or mechanical issues), create an articificial game which can be viewed by talking to an NPC standing in the respective outposts.

These self-made observer matches should contain clear tactics and bars so that someone without GW experience should be able to understand what are the goals of the format. Give the different (made-up) players recognizable names, such as Nuker, Shut Down, Healer, so that people can click on one of these "players" and immediatly understand what they're trying to do (Nuke, shutdown or heal) while observing them.

This is an interesting idea but there are too many playstyles for each profession that can work on both the Kurzick and Luxon side. 1 artificial game wouldn't be enough and then you'd need more games to show how different combinations work with each other/against each other etc etc.

Quote:

Rework "/resign"
Either lower the benchmark for a /resign to through (50% of the team as opposed to 100%) or rework it in another way. I don't have adequate experience in other games to see how it's done right, but I'm fairly sure there is far better options than the one we have now, which is utterly useless in JQ/FA/AB.

But wouldn't this also promote another form of griefing in the form of forced resignation of an entire team? In AB, if one team of four has 2 people intending on griefing, those 2 resign and as a result, their entire team of 4 resigns which will cause the opposite team to have an advantage.

Quote:

RA Monk Problem

Add either an environmental effect which heals players for certain actions (Killing someone) OR an NPC similar to the Priest with target heals. There will always be an advantage to having a Monk in your team, but the difference between 2 Monks - 3damage dealers vs 1Monk (NPC) 4 damage dealers is alot less severe than 1 Monk - 3 damage dealers vs 4 damage dealers.

RA consecutive problem

As a whole, the gladiatory title needs another rework. Since TA got removed, it's unlikely anyone will ever max it, or even come close for that matter. Points are gained at too slow of a rate, aswell as at an inconsistent rate. Awards a set amount of points for every win (1 points) and every 5th win increases in increments. (So: 1-1-1-1-5-1-1-1-1-10-1-1-1-1-15...) This would give incentive to consecutives wins, while at the same time not making single wins useless.

Yes please! I'd like to play RA again. Haven't done so in 2 years.

Quote:

Leeching problem

Punishing leechers will always be a double bladed sword because there will always be "innocent" leechers who got forced to afk because of real life circumstances. I don't have an ideal solution worked out, but I do believe the current system needs to get rework.

For starters, punishment for long-term leeching need to get severly increased. If someone leeches on a daily basis, for whatever reason, it's a clear sign he simply isn't very competitive to have in your team, and thus he shouldn't be there. Individual cases, however, should get punished as few as possible, because real life in the end still is alot more important than a game.

It's pretty hard to pinpoint the ideal ratio, but it's pretty easy to realize where we're at now is far from that ideal ratio. (Way to much innocent people get reported)

Don't worry, the infamous Lord (L.D.S.) got perma banned last week, ending his three-year-long reign of terror.

Kelfer · Mar 08, 2011, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Leeching: I agree that some reliable system needs to be put into effect, however, there are so many issues going on w. GW cheats / bots etc. that this is always gonna take time. The only way to really find out what's happening is to "flag" count the amount of dishonor occurences, If it's more than 2-3 times a day, then it wasn't caused by the cat pissing on the carpet!

"Being ahead of the game" is probably the most nauseating thing, Those that are manipulating and will never get caught, kinda sick that they need to even try this.

Spoilers Seen this nuff and the subject has not turned up here yet. Ppl form the same guild or friends join the opposite team and quit w. 15 secs count to start. I seen chars standing in the middle of a match laughing at one and other and everyone else, these obviously aren't the former but another case - How the heck are you gonna dicsover that now?

Why? · Mar 08, 2011, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

I think one of these two things should happen with resign:

Not be allowed to be used in PvP.... if you start a match you should finish it....

If usable in PvP make it cause dishonor.. and not reward a win based on how long the match went on... /resign is used most in syncing GvG/Codex/HA ... there is no reason you should be quitting a match when you have prepared to enter...

Syncing will have to be addressed if there is any going to be any legitimacy in the pvp titles....

So will consecutive win requirements for rewards if you want people just starting pvp to feel like it is worth their time and effort... Otherwise pvp will always only belong to the people who dedicated themselves greatly to pvp...

i agree with the /resign thing. if you use it, you should get dishonor. The dishonor systems needs some tweaking, but it also needs to stay.

Someone who has never seen an AB match go from 100-0 one way to 300-200 the other doesn't play enough ab.

I have the feeling part of the Ops problem is he is a jerk in game.

Sir Mad · Mar 08, 2011, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nalia

i have yet to see this statement to be true, many people say it but i have done ab since the early days, the faction has changed numerous times and now its at the peak of being able to get points towards the title for ab/fa/jq along with any other method of gathering that faction.

still though, my account has been luxon since the release of factions, i would consider myself a skilled ab'er, not the best, not the worst, a bit above average. i consistently win and play nearly daily for numerous hours each day in ab. the state of ab has changed a few times drastically over the years, where kurzick won more often and luxon won more often. ok thats fine. yet ive been only luxon from day 1, never kurzick, to get specific, i have turned in a total of 0 kurzick faction since the release of factions itself. yet, i am still only r7 luxon.

now i understand that maybe youre going to argue 'trollololol win moar nub' or 'play more and earn more' or some other response related to those, but the fact is that you simply cannot gain r12 in the title in a reasonable amount of time from pvp alone. i did the math to go from r0 to r12, it would take roughly 5 days of non-stop mqsc to max luxon title iirc. realistically a person cannot play like that, so realistically it would take a couple weeks of playing 8 hour days of NOTHING except mqsc. thats pretty ridiculous imho, but not too off the wall. now you take that same amount of faction required for r0 to r12, and apply it to say AB. and lets assume you ARE playing literally 24 hour days non-stop. due to wait times, lulls in the community (keep in mind PvP means player versus player and if there is no player to versus then you also cant play), losses, etc. it will take considerably longer to gain that same amount of faction as compared to mqsc.

i dont think the title should be solely pvp related, because it has implementations in pve (see imbagon, sos rit, etc.) but at least try to get a closer match to pve only methods of acquiring the title as compared to pvp only methods of acquiring it either by increasing the pvp gains for faction or decreasing the pve gains or a combination of the two.

I can only tell from my own experience. I have r6 or 7 luxon (not sure) and r10 (almost r11) kurzik. I never farmed factions in PvE, excepted of course when I vanquished Cantha for the title (and even then half the kurzik map was luxon so I didn't get many factions). And the thing is... I played the game maybe 2 or 3 weeks last year for example. Now I play a bit more, and I got 1.5/2M factions in 2 weeks in CM. I don't think it's too bad...

But yes, you're probably right about AB. However, CM are a very nice way to max your titles IMO. I'm not saying you'll max it in 2 weeks, but if you start now, you'll definitely have it maxed when GW2 will be released.

Quote:

it would be nice, i relate it to say rock band 3, i have recently been playing you can drop-in/out as you see fit even in the middle of a song. the problem is, it doesnt affect other opposing players, your 'team' is the only affected group, as there really is no opposition. so for pvp i dont think this sort of drop-in/out would work as it could impact the current game drastically in an unfair manner.

In WAR you could leave PvP missions without restrictions and someone else on the queue replaced you. That had little to no impact on the game. However, yes, I don't know if that would work for GW.

StormX · Mar 14, 2011, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelfer

The only way to really find out what's happening is to "flag" count the amount of dishonor occurences, If it's more than 2-3 times a day, then it wasn't caused by the cat pissing on the carpet!

agree with this. if an account accrues more than say, 5 dishonors every 24 hours it should automatically be flagged and a report sent to the mods. this will eliminate the worst offenders

Quote:

Don't worry, the infamous Lord (L.D.S.) got perma banned last week, ending his three-year-long reign of terror.

makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside

coil · Mar 14, 2011, 03:00 PM // 15:00

i agree with borat in most everything.

ironically, i also have my hopes up with Stumme at the helm

also, i think a lot of the problem would be mitigated if you didn't get dishonour from 3-4 people reporting you for going pee while you're losing 150 - 450...if you're going to dishonour leechers/bots, require ~85% of the team to /report you, otherwise it's probably someone going potty.

on a side note, last night ~40 RA matches, only 1 match had leavers...the rest waited til after match timer to leave.

Missing HB · Mar 14, 2011, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by coil

also, i think a lot of the problem would be mitigated if you didn't get dishonour from 3-4 people reporting you for going pee while you're losing 150 - 450...if you're going to dishonour leechers/bots, require ~85% of the team to /report you, otherwise it's probably someone going potty.

Then in those cases maybe dishonor shouldn't take effect if someone didn't load map , but only if someone isn't moving for 3-5 consecutive mins ....

On a side note too , report shouldn't be a command but an automatic system ( if done like i said, i.e auto dishonor if not moving whole game , etc....). 75% of people reporting are usually clueless and just watch map without thinking....

To quote some examples :
- Someone not moving in AB for 30 sec , he just killed NPCS then afked fast on a shrine just to recap it , he got 3 reports..
- Many times , people reporting in RA because you decide to afk fast when the fight is won ( i.e 4v2)

Hugh Manatee · Mar 15, 2011, 03:40 AM // 03:40

I've been on way to many no monk teams and streaked to agree with much anything the op has stated about "you need a monk to win" BS. Even been on quite a few 2 monk 2 offense teams and won, even streaked. The only time I've ever had real total failures is when one or more guys just doesn't even bother or you take scissor VS rock. The only thing he said that I concur was skilled players win, fail players fail. Being RA sometimes you draw a Rock team when you're swinging scissors is all. The only team that has 0 chance of wining is a team with 0 offense.

They need to just kill RA, totally and entirely kill it. Bring Back TA, but codex style where certain skills are locked or rebalanced for just TA(like overkill hexes or broken heals. Random pairing just sucks, no matter how you slice it, most of the flaws, the leeching, the dumb players, the titles, the dishonor, all that shit gets fixed if players can form parties.

If they have a random pairing arena, it should just be like FPS deathmatch or team deathmatch pugs, everything cowboys around and kills everything for 5 minutes then the map changes, top scores get faction and points.

Don Zardeone · Mar 15, 2011, 07:34 AM // 07:34

So I just had a bunch of matches in JQ where there would be bots on both sides.

I had a spirit spammer spam spirits in the starting spawn X.x

then there were these mesmers constantly doing the same thing over and over. Mass spreading the wastrels and always moving at top efficiency. backfiring them is quite easy but they just cast through it and still manage to cap the damn spawn and return at max efficiency so all my stuff is still recharging and they're back again X.x

It's a lot of free faction though but it's annoying if you have an afk bot vs if you have an actual capper bot. Capper bots are more useful

cantalus · Mar 15, 2011, 11:11 AM // 11:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Fallacious logic. Playing a game you know you're going to win is just as unfun as playing a game you know you're going to lose.

i'm afraid lots of people don't agree, they want to win, they want to know they're going to win, it's as Borat as said elsewhere, a pve mentality in people who pvp, this is why they sync, this is why people bbway etc, this is why people bot, so they reduce the chances of losing. another curious characteristic of these type of people is they tend to have significant rank, and think it matters, despite them being involved in behaviour that negates it's significance in anyone who doesn't share their morality